MSNBC doled out some characteristically fractured wisdom on Wednesday’s The 11th Hour. Marc Dunkelman of Brown University’s Watson Institute blamed progressives for bringing the second Trump administration on themselves, claiming they had tied their own hands by impeding government power through no other means than, ironically enough, exercising government power. A revisionist history that got gooey praise from host Stephanie Ruhle.
Ruhle predictably opened up, lamenting that “Most Americans do not think that government is capable of solving big problems anymore, and a lot of people don’t trust the government at all. All of this led, in part, to the reelection of Donald Trump.”
She then introduced Dunkelman, who outlined his political philosophy and praised the public works of big government:
Well, we got to a point where we had built all these tremendous things- the Tennessee Valley Authority, the Social Security Administration, the highway system, you name it. And then… we saw that the people… who had made these big decisions, had also made a series of bad decisions… There were all these… terrible things that had happened. And Progressives… for the most part, switched to being more fearful of government than they were excited about deploying it to fix problems. And so for 50 years, we’ve had the… remarkable run of putting guardrails around public authority to the point that public authority no longer works.
Dunkelman seemed completely oblivious to the obvious- that “putting guardrails around public authority” was itself nothing but an exercise of public authority. It was also an exercise in revisionist history; suggesting they wanted to restrain government rather than restrain free markets and capitalism.
The irony was apparently just as lost on Ruhle, and, bringing in what had seemingly become MSNBC’s favorite subject in the world, she asked, “did that lead us to DOGE?”
Dunkelman responded:
Well, look, we Democrats are the party of government. And the general impression is that government doesn’t work…The reason that voters… accept all the disgusting things about Donald Trump, is that they believe that he is going to be their agent to break through this system that doesn’t work. We need… to be thinking about, how do we rebalance our priorities so that not only are we protecting people from the scourge of government… but that we are empowering government to make expeditious decisions that work in the public interest.
Still ignoring the laughable circularity of the whole argument, Ruhle asked how that could be done, to which Dunkelman all but argued that they need to become the party of small government:
[W]e have a series of tradeoffs we’re going to have to make… At the moment, progressives have created this long litany, this gauntlet, of protections… so everyone has, essentially, a veto, over the system that they don’t like. And what we need to do is find some balance, so that everybody has a voice… but they don’t have a veto over it.
But he still couldn’t shake the urge for governmental control. “And then we need to empower public officials to come and make big decisions…[G]overnment officials are elected to office, or appointed to office, to make decisions on our behalf. We need to trust them,” he proclaimed.
So, according to Dunkelman, the government had to expand its regulatory ability to protect itself from its habit of impeding its regulatory ability by expanding its regulatory ability, and so on apparently ad infinitum.
As though Dunkelman had shed light on a real problem, rather than spewing incoherent foolishness, Ruhle enthused, “Mark, I will vote for all of those things. Just let us know when and how to get that done.”
To read the full transcript, click “expand” to read:
MSNBC’s The 11th Hour03/05/2025
11:38 PM
[ON-SCREEN HEADLINE: NEW BOOK EXPLORES WHY GOVT. PROGRESS IS AT STANDSTILL]
STEPHANIE RUHLE: I am very excited to have this conversation. Most Americans do not think that government is capable of solving big problems anymore, and a lot of people don’t trust the government at all. All of this led, in part, to the reelection of Donald Trump.
My next guest, Marc Dunkelman, argues: If Progressives put making government work, not on the periphery of the movement’s agenda, but at its center, voters might be less vulnerable to the sirens of the populist right. Here to discuss, Marc Daunkelman himself, fellow at Brown University’s Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs and author of the new book Why Nothing Works: Who Killed Progress and How to Bring It Back.
I’m so glad you’re here. We built this country. We did huge things. What happened?
MARC DUNKELMAN: Well, we got to a point where we had built all these tremendous things- the Tennessee Valley Authority, the Social Security Administration, the highway system, you name it.
And then in- sort of- this [sic]- late 60s, early 70s, we saw that the people- the men, largely- who had made these big decisions, had also made a series of bad decisions. They’d gotten us into the war, they’d done urban renewal- which was slum clearance- which turned out to be a disaster destroying urban neighborhoods, they put pesticides on our crops that had driven- you know- birth defects. There were all these, sort of- terrible things that had happened.
And Progressives, on- for the most part, switched to being more fearful of government than they were excited about deploying it to fix problems. And so for 50 years, we’ve had the sort of remarkable run of putting guardrails around public authority to the point that public authority no longer works.
RUHLE: Did that lead us to DOGE?
Because there are a lot of people out there that are rationalizing these cuts. Listen, you could always- you could always- find waste. You can find some fraud. And we are a hyper-regulated country.
DUNKELMAN: Well, look, we Democrats are the party of government.
And the general impression is that government doesn’t work. And that’s a lousy political position to be in, right? If you’re selling refrigerators and the refrigerators don’t get to keep- keep your groceries cold- like- that’s- that’s a lousy advertising scheme. There’s no way to- there’s no way to talk around that.
The reason that voters, I think, in the end, accept all the disgusting things about Donald Trump, is that they believe that he is going to be their agent to break through this system that doesn’t work.
We need, as progressives, to be thinking about, how do we rebalance our priorities so that not only are we protecting people from the scourge of government, which is the way we’ve thought about it for most of the last 30, 40 years, but that we are empowering government to make expeditious decisions that work in the public interest.
RUHLE: But how do you do that?
Because the mindset of Democrats has become, they want to be inclusive of absolutely everyone, and they want to be careful not to hurt anyone. But in that careful motion, stuff doesn’t get done.
So how do you- how do you change a complete mindset?
DUNKELMAN: Well, that’s exactly right.
The trick here is that we have a series of tradeoffs we’re going to have to make. Somebody needs to choose where the bridge is going to be built. And depending on where you build the bridge, someone’s house is going to have to be taken, someone’s going to have to move. Where is the transmission line going to go? Some piece of forest is going to have to be chopped down so that we can get clean energy from where it’s generated to where it’s used. And those are hard tradeoffs, like- those are tough decisions.
At the moment, progressives have created this long litany, this gauntlet, of protections for all the people- so everyone has, essentially, a veto, over the system that they don’t like.
And what we need to do is find some balance, so that everybody has a voice when it comes to a big decision that will affect their life personally, but they don’t have a veto over it. And then we need to empower public officials to come and make big decisions expeditiously, that can’t then be forever litigated in the courts- that aren’t subject to an endless number of community meetings and- opportunities for people to express their frustration.
People- the- government officials are elected to office, or appointed to office, to make decisions on our behalf. We need to trust them.
RUHLE: Mark, I will vote for all of those things. Just let us know when and how to get that done.
DUNKELMAN: I- that- there’s no simple answer, except that we progressives need to understand that the solution in each case is not to put another check on government. That’s our, sort of, reflexive impulse.
We need to get rid of that and say, in some cases, we need to allow people to make tough decisions. Someone needs to be able to ratify a tough tradeoff that doesn’t work to any- everyone’s benefit, but works to everyone’s.
RUHLE: Mark, thank you so much for joining us.
(…)
