Washington Post associate editor Jonathan Capehart lamented to PBS News Hour host Geoff Bennett on Friday that Democratic California Gov. Gavin Newsom’s podcast appearance with conservative Charlie Kirk, where he dissented from the party line, continued the nation’s alleged inability to have “nuanced and thoughtful” conversations about transgender people participating in women’s sports.
After playing a clip of the interview, Bennett wondered, “So, this is coming amid a debate among Democrats about, you know, how much did cultural factors play a role in their huge defeat in November and how do they address it? How does this strike you, Jonathan?”
Capehart began by trying to calm down his fellow liberals who might view Newsom’s appearance as a betrayal, “Well, look, Governor Newsom is somebody whose credentials in LGBTQ rights were cemented 21 years ago, when he, against the advice of every Democrat in the country, issued marriage licenses to same-sex couples.”
However, he did lament that “what this shows is, and what I wished he had done, because I actually listened to the podcast and this entire section. And he kept talking about fairness, which I get, but he didn’t talk more fully about, what exactly do you mean?”
Capehart then played dumb on what the definition of a man is, “In the conversation with Charlie Kirk, I mean, the way he says ‘no men in female sports,’ just the way he talks about that, we’re not talking about men in drag pretending to be women in sports. We’re talking about trans women, trans girls.”
In other words, men or boys. Still, Capehart rolled on, “But what I really like and what I loved about this segment on trans athletes with Dr. Bradley Anawalt, he puts it — he says it perfectly. This is — that there’s a tension here between fairness and allowing people who want to play sports to play sports.”
He further claimed, “What we need to do is, as Americans, and certainly elected officials, have a more nuanced and thoughtful conversation. This is not a black-and-white issue. This is something that requires a lot of thoughtful — a lot of thoughtful conversation led by scientists, led by doctors, led by people who actually know something about this.”
The politics of the Middle East is nuanced. What differentiates male and female is straightforward.
Still, Capehart held out hope that history will prove him correct, “And the last thing I will say is, I — look, I’m an out gay man. I came up during the 1980s, when there was the AIDS epidemic and people were out in the streets saying, ‘Hey, we are here.’ Will & Grace comes along, and suddenly there’s a cultural change, a change in the country in how they viewed LGBTQ folks. We need to have that same kind of cultural conversation when it comes to the T, one that is nuanced and thoughtful, and not sort of bombastic in the way that Charlie Kirk talks about.”
Capehart went on for so long that National Review editor and David Brooks’s substitute, Ramesh Ponnuru, didn’t get a chance to weigh in. Bennett simply brought the segment to a close, “We will have to leave it there. I’m so sorry. We’re out of time… We’ll have you back, and we will get you to weigh in. Thanks for your time.”
Here is a transcript for the March 7 show:
PBS News Hour
3/7/2025
7:36 PM and
GEOFF BENNETT: So, this is coming amid a debate among Democrats about, you know, how much did cultural factors play a role in their huge defeat in November and how do they address it? How does this strike you, Jonathan?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, look, Governor Newsom is somebody whose credentials in LGBTQ rights were cemented 21 years ago, when he, against the advice of every Democrat in the country, issued marriage licenses to same-sex couples.
So this is not a question of whether he has thrown the community under the bus after two decades. But what this shows is, and what I wished he had done, because I actually listened to the podcast and this entire section. And he kept talking about fairness, which I get, but he didn’t talk more fully about, what exactly do you mean?
In the conversation with Charlie Kirk, I mean, the way he says “no men in female sports,” just the way he talks about that, we’re not talking about men in drag pretending to be women in sports. We’re talking about trans women, trans girls.
But what I really like and what I loved about this segment on trans athletes with Dr. Bradley Anawalt, he puts it — he says it perfectly. This is — that there’s a tension here between fairness and allowing people who want to play sports to play sports.
What we need to do is, as Americans, and certainly elected officials, have a more nuanced and thoughtful conversation. This is not a black-and-white issue. This is something that requires a lot of thoughtful — a lot of thoughtful conversation led by scientists, led by doctors, led by people who actually know something about this.
And the last thing I will say is, I — look, I’m an out gay man. I came up during the 1980s, when there was the AIDS epidemic and people were out in the streets saying, “Hey, we are here.” Will & Grace comes along, and suddenly there’s a cultural change, a change in the country in how they viewed LGBTQ folks.
We need to have that same kind of cultural conversation when it comes to the T, one that is nuanced and thoughtful, and not sort of bombastic in the way that Charlie Kirk talks about.
BENNETT: We will have to leave it there. I’m so sorry. We’re out of time.
CAPEHART: Sorry.
BENNETT: Jonathan Capehart. We’ll have you back, and we will get you to weigh in. Thanks for your time.
